Planet Kilmer Discusses
TOMBSTONE
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Subject: Tombstone & Doc ~ A Theory....
Well, I should make a feeble attempt to argue my Doc thesis. I forced myself to watch Tombstone again today, as research. It wasa tough job, but someone had to do it. I still have a lot of questions, but I don't think the Doc/Kate relationship is actually coherent enough to definitively settle anything. I think the director had a lot of plans, and ended up cutting practically the entire thing so he could have lots of shots of Kurt staring into space. Well, enough bitching. First, I agree that you cannot tell if the small dark girl is Kate in the bed with the other two when Doc and the other guy burst in,but the look on Doc's face indicates something is amiss, and Idon't think it's because he is shocked at interrupting a threesome. He is anything but naive! Although the girl is deliberately keptout of focus, she is the right colouring and build for Kate, and I think that at this point, Kate is with the Cowboys. Why?
I think this betrayal theme fits into the foreshadowing that permeates the beginning of the film. Doc makes all kinds of Mephistophelean references about and to Kate. He calls her a sweet Hungarian devil, asks her if her soul is for sale (yes, as it turns out!) and finally wonders if she is his anti_Christ. I think the irony here is that Doc thinks he is just joking, but he doesn't know Kate as well as he thinks he does. Or, there would have been lovely irony if any of this was followed through on to the end of the film. The Kate/Doc relationship just kind of dribbles out 3/4 of the way through Tombstone, which is too bad, because following it through would have made the film structurally and thematically stronger. And who needed more shots of Kurt Russell (hoping you are not a Kurt fans!)? Admittedly, the new scene included in the laser version doesn't sound as if it fits very well into the above, but then, I wasn'tthat much impressed with how this scene read, so I have decided to ignore it and determine that it was cut for good reason. Also, inthe Movieline interview, Val said almost 100 behind the scene people were fired or quit the film, and he was astounded that his character managed to survive the chaos. I suspect more than onewriter contributed ideas, and there may have been two threads of Doc's relationship going, neither of which managed to procure enough garlic to ward off the cutting room shears. So, that's it__convince me I'm wrong! Jair ************************************** Well, I dunno about the rest of the stuff you mentioned...sounds good, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. That woman getting her picture taken is in fact Josephine. Around the time that movie came out on video, I read the memoirs of Josephine Earp and in there it says that she was taking pornographic pictures for behan and then got mad at him when he was getting to greedy about it. this was where her quarrels with him sort of began. if you look carefully, you can easily see that it is josephine. she runs out of the room and puts a purple robe on and then you see her later in the room during the fight. later..... CAT *************************************
Yep, you convinced me: it is Josephine in the
gauzy material. Good call.
So, where does that leave me? I still think the devil/selling soul references are supposed to be foreshadowing, the Kate/Doc cigarrete in the mouth etc. scene, and the threesome with Doc's look of recognition/shock point to Kate's betrayal, but I take back any suggestion we see her with the Cowboys at the O.K. Corral. I don't think there's enough evidence, really, to definitively say yes or no to my theory, but it seemed to me the film was originally building up to this betrayal thing, and then dropped it abruptly. Just a theory! Jair ************************************ Okay, Jair, I'll bite. I really don't like doing this too much, because I tend to show my naivity, when I do. 8*) However, IMHO, I've always looked at the Devil/selling soul question flying all over the playhouse was meant to explain that both Ringo and Doc had done this (although, we do learn to see that Doc's hypocracity knows no bounds). I believe he's asking Kate in jest, feeling in his own heart that Kate has already done so, too. Why else would she be with a character like Doc?
>the Kate/Doc cigarrete in the mouth etc. scene, and the threesome Once again, we see he was indeed correct that he knew Kate and understood the association (as he so delicately puts it) between the two of them. Kate, knew that if he listened to the Dr's advice she'd have no place with Doc any longer. And as you mentioned, she would have to find somebody else to take care of her. This is historically correct. Kate does leave Doc, and she _does_ end up with the Cowboys. One account even eludes to the fact that she and Curly Bill had a previous affair, prior to Doc and she returns to be with Curly after Doc and her split.
> but it seemed to me the film was originally building up to
As for what you see as shock at Kates betrayal in the scene with the threesome, I saw completely in a different light. Oops! Anyways, you all know I'm a little crazy already ... so, I'll just spit it out. Doc's already shown that he's not exactly a prude, being in a whore house and having his partner shout don't move. Doc wanted a look-see and when he saw the two girls, he was telling them "By all means, move!" Now, that you've brought up Kate in this scene, I can see that your idea could very easily be correct. Knowing that it is factual that she does indeed end up with the Cowboys. I am just saying what I, in my neverending craziness, thought prior to your theory is correct, just putting my 2 cents worth in! hehehehe >Just a theory! A such a fun one, too! Now, I have a question. When Doc is answering Wyatt's question about Ringo and why he's like he is. Is Doc talking from personal experience? Mare ************************************ Hi, Mare! Thanks for the reply. Good observations, (now I guess it's my turn to risk naivete! So, here goes . . . )
> at the Devil/selling soul question flying all over the playhouse was meant Re: the hypocrisy thing: I took it that we were meant to learn that Doc is actually no hypocrite, though he self-mockingly calls himself so. Wyatt seems to understand Doc's personal code of honour.
> As for what you see as shock at Kates betrayal in the scene with the
> Doc's already shown that he's not exactly a prude, being in a whore Interesting. I guess what makes me interpret it differently is that I expected him to look salacious in this scene, but instead to me he looks shocked and a bit wounded (hurt pride?); and instead of milking the moment for what it's worth, he turns on his heel and strides out.
> A such a fun one, too! Now, I have a question. When Doc is answering
In some ways, yes--I think Doc is unhappy, and clearly
has no problems risking his life over and over--he
What do the rest of you think? Jair ************************************ As far as Tombstone goes with the exception of our first Doc scene he actually was _such_ a good guy. Wasn't he? While we know that Doc Holliday _was_ a bad guy for the most part in reality, this movie plays games with us that make him seem like he has always been misunderstood. Hmmm... "Does this mean we're not friends, anymore? I don't think I could bear it, if you weren't my friend." Then he not only kills Billy Tyler, but robs the saloon, too. Sure, the code of the old west - Call me a cheater and I can kill you, like when Creek Jack and the other guy tell Sheriff Wyatt that "it was a fair fight...law and order all the way". Okay, so, killing Billy was acceptable but why did he rob the saloon?
>Perhaps a more rigidly defined code as to when he will kill? What do you I think he was living on the edge (not exactly heroic) because he didn't wish to dye in bed. I take that last scene with Doc in his death bed when he says looking at at his feet "Isn't this funny." to mean it was funny because he _never_ expected to dye without his boots on. I read in one article that Val said of Doc - of course, anyone who chose to be a dentist in those days had to be cruel and demented. HA! Think about it... Mare ************************************* In my opinion Doc is talking from his personal experience. Doc is an ambivalent person. Johnny Ringo is a man who is like Doc's "dark side" and because of this he understands him better than Wyatt Earp. I think this ambivalence appears also in Doc's relationship to Kate, which you have discussed before. Sibylle ************************************* Of course not- he's dieing alredy! The man who's got the least to lose is alwys the best in a gunfight, and what has doc got to lose? Kate? :O don't make me laugh! I think the only thing is Wyatt, and Wyatt doesn't *really* need Doc, which Doc knows.
: do you see Doc as havin kill to fill in the big hole at the centre of him? I think Doc was not speaking from personal experience. I think he meant that he could make a guess. Wyatt does after all come to Doc for EVERYTHING (the book has many many many moe scenes in it than the movie. 2 or 1 scenes where wyatt asks fr help) and Doc was best expert at the time... maybe Doc knows the filling (feeling) but has never had the *actual* feeling, because he also has people, which Ringo does not.
: As far as Tombstone goes with the exception of our first Doc scene he Very tough question, Mare! What about his cheating in the almost-gunfight between him and Ringo? He NEVER inteded to give Ringo a changce (chance). I think Doc has no problem with doing things seen as quite distasteful -- I certain ly wouldn't put it past him to cheat at poker, though he's too good to need to Kurt called Doc "a certifialble psycho." I agree with Mare about the dentist line, though there is a better explanation. Doc is famous fr having very very steady hands, and he was from a reasonably wealthy Southern family so he decided to go into dentistry. And it did end up beig one of his favorite things in life.
: I think he was living on the edge (not exactly heoroic) because he ddn't wish to Good call! I interpret "This is funny" exactly the same way. I don't think Doc at heart was a "bad " person. He was not sadistic. He never wanted to tease or torture anone. (Not evern Kate... though he shoud have!) I think his problem was that he didn't have enough love in i his life. The only person who ever gave a damn about him was Wyatt. Even the girl he loved, "joined a convent over the affair." I think he figured no one would care if he lived or died and therefore he wouldn't either, and therefore, why bother treading the straight and narrow path when what w he really wanted was to gamble and have fun? About his robbing the casino. He really wasn't a rich man. I think it's just "what the hell, we're leaving town anyway. And also, he probably would have cleaned them out if he'd stayed around to gamble, so what the hell? Doc is a very confusing character. He's a "gentleman turned gumman and gambler." He plays piano with all the skil he gambles. He's with a whore -- LITERALLY -- when he loved a woman with such strong morals she became a non (nun). He's a snazzy dresser (arguably the best dressed in te film) but he has no problem running out in just a shirt and trousers and cape. He's tubercular, but he gets off hs (almost) deathbed to save Wyatt. I'd like to add one cute (?) irony: when Doc is on his deathbed and Wyatt is playing poker with him, DOC'S NOT EVEN PLAYING AND HE STILL BEATS WYATT. I dont' think that's just coincidence. I think Doc abandoned his morals when he left the South. I think he became an entirely new am man, and ovccasianaly we get glimpses of the man he once was. But he isn't all there... he's really a man of his *own* creation. I wonder what parts of him got left in the cold. Anjela ********************************** >Subject: RE: Favorite???? >Tombstone > I can watch that movie over and over. Kurt Russell was good >but I liked the guy who played Ike he made me laugh. But Val was the >best. I wish they left all the parts in that they took out. Just think >what we missed. Shelly, I agree Val was _the_ best as Doc. {sigh} Did anyone else like Michael Biehn (Johnny Ringo) I thought they were the best in the movie. Thanks to Anjela, I, now, have the out-takes from Tombstone...WOW! They are just wonderful. I really wish they had left them in. Haven't we all wondered about Mattie's reaction to Wyatt's interest in Josephine? Well, her biggest scene in the whole movie addressing this point was taken out and it's great. Here it is from the script: Mattie irons shirts in the adjoining bedroon while Wyatt finishes shaving. Looking in the cabinet for a towel, he opens the bottom drawer, a nest of small brown bottles clatters onto the floor. Laudanum bottles, all empty. Mattie looks up as Wyatt comes out, bottle in hand: Wyatt: Mattie. What about this? Mattie: (looks up, keeps ironing) I need it. Wyatt: 'Least you admit it.
Mattie: Admit what, I'm an opium fiend? No, Wyatt, I just said I Wyatt: Look, Mattie, I know you're --
Mattie: You know nothing. What you don't know would fill a book. This catches Wyatt off-guard. He looks at her. She sneers, then: Wyatt: All right, look. I can make it right, I can make this up to you. I can, I swear.
Mattie: Will you go to her and tell her right in front of me she's
nothing to you? Wyatt falls silent. Mattie stands, staring at him a moment.
Mattie: Until you can do that we've got nothing to talk about,
Wyatt. She keeps ironing. Wyatt looks as if a building fell on him.... Then when Billy Nilly leaves the Behan's posse in disgust there's a scene where he catches up to Wyatt and the boys, at Hooker's Ranch. He's gunned down and killed the men who were responsible for the death of his idol, Fabian. Billy tells Wyatt he's taking them back to Tomsbstone and Wyatt approves, of course. In my script it describes the scene prior to the out take like this: Cowboys Hunt & Grounds are bedding down for the night. Hunt: No fire tonight, son. Too many riders out. Grounds grunts. Suddenly there's an o.s. SOUND. Both jump up. Billy: It's Deputy Breakenridge. They relax and lower their pistols, heaving sighs of relief. Hunt: Sister Boy! Thank God, we was afraid -- Billy: You shouldn't've killed Mr. Fabian. You shouldn't've done that. It was wrong. I'm taking you both in for it. Hunt: What? You gotta be kiddin'. Look, just go home 'fore you get hurt. Billy: Don't want to kill you, but I will if I have to. I'm warning you. Grounds: No, I'm warning you, Sister Boy! Grounds steps forward menacingly. Breakenridge tenses: Billy: Don't try it! Grounds: Sister Boy, just go to hell! Grounds raises his pistol. Billy recoils in fright, stumbling backward in the dark, and his rifle accidently FIRES. Grounds drops like a stone, a look of utter disbelief on his dying face. Hunt looks at him in shock then turn on Billy, raising his gun and snarling. Billy FIRES again. Hunt grabs his mid- section, dropping his gun and falling to his knees. He looks up at Billy who shrugs timidly: Billy: Sorry. Hunt fall over dead. Billy stares at the bodies, hardly believing it himself... Wyatt and his men are on the porch, listening to Hooker:
Hooker: ...brought 'em in draped over their saddles. Little Billy
Breakenrighe. Wyatt shakes his head, hardly comprehending what he started .... We get to see the last scene of McMasters' facing Ringo's invitation to come back and join the Cowboys. McMasters rides up with the Cowboy. Riding through camp, all his former comarades glare at him with pure hate. Only Ringo smiles, stepping up as McMasters dismounts. Ringo: Well hello, Sherm. McM: You wanted to talk? Ringo: Yeah, kinda. Wanted to see if you'd join back up with us. McM: That what you got me up here for? Ringo: You're a Couboy, you're a brother. Come back, no hard feelings. McM: Forget it, Ringo.
Ringo: Isn't there anything I can say that'll change your mind? You're McM: 'Least they don't kill women. Ringo: You're the boss. One thing though. Ringo moves closer, looking him in the eye and smiling: Ringo: How you gonna get back to 'em? NOW!!! Anjela's ( some of my comments, too) version of the out-takes with Doc: After the murder of Morgan, a very sick-looking Doc - quoting Coleridge "Kubla Khan"-- [extreme close-up of Doc sitting in a chair in the dark]
"Weave a circle round him thrice Then he passes out. [This is a wonderful scene and it's _ashame_ they cut it!] Now, the extra Kate scene! SWOON!!!!! OK; this occurs between when Wyatt et al leave Tombstone ~ when they arrive at the train station. Doc is packing up a horse to go 'way when Kate comes in and says: K: It's Wyatt, isn't it? It's always Wyatt! -- she yanks his cigarette out of his mouth. K: Why? Why is he so much?
D: Kate, try and understand. Now the man has given up everything
to do what he must. K: I don't understand. If you get killed, where does it leave me? D: Without a meal ticket, I suppose. (He leaves the stable.) K: You bastard. (at times, hitting Doc and very upset) D: (mounts his horse) I'm leaving now, darlin'. K: You bastard, Doc!!!!! D: Have you no kind word to say to me before I ride away? K: (Huff! Huff!) D: I calculate not. [very sarcastic] And he rides away. Oh well, hope you all enjoyed the out-takes as best as we can relate them. Some of us have already seen the Doc lines, but newer members missed it, so be patient with me please. 8^P Gotta go! Mare *************************************
>Mare, you madcap! Where you goin' with that Tombstone script??????
>Fellow Tombstone fan(atic), Tombstone fanatic??? Nonsense, we have not yet begun to defile ourselves...not with this fine flick, anyway! Doesn't he just have the most quotable lines in the whole thing?
I thought Michael B. was GREAT...especially in that final scene where he and
Doc duel. Does anyone else think that when Doc gives this speech about Johnny
Ringo, he is really referring to himself... Wish I knew more about the real Doc Holliday...the psychologist in me is so intrigued by his deathwish behavior (which I believe Val himself or someone commented on in a review of Tombstone)...yet his loyalty to his friend is so great. Absolutely one of my faves...right after TH. Linda ************************************* Been years since I was in my Western US history phase, and have forgotten most of what I know, but if memory is serving, Tombstone was one of the few Hollywood films that got most of what it had in it right. I remember reading a bit about "Doc" Holliday back then, and I know I always felt so badly for him, in that he did everything he could to avoid dying in bed of tuberculosis (which was always said to be part of the reason he gave up dentistry and took up a riskier life in the West (where the climate was hoped to extend his life of course too), and yet that is exactly how he ended his days. Other Westerns that have featured Doc have always bugged me, because they always cast older men to play him. John Holliday died before he was thirty as I recall. I think that you are probably right that Doc is talking as much about himself as Johnny Ringo in that line from the film. That is why there was such a competitive thing between them, because in each other, they recognized themselves. I don't think that Doc went out of his way to inflict pain, so maybe he was judging himself a bit harshly against Ringo--but he certainly had to feel that he'd been cheated by even being born, since the illness that was to take his life, had put its claim on him at so young an age. He raged against a God/Universe whatever, that would give someone a taste of what it was to live, only to snatch it away in too few years. Or my thoughts on the subject anyway! There has been a lot of ink spilled in Western U.S. history lore about the OK Corrall fight and the lives of its participants--so there are probably some wonderful books out there. But where is the time to read them, eh? That's my problem! Lisa
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Well, let me argue another contentious point. You remember the scene just
before the shootout at the 
I think they were building up to alot of things and
abruptly dropped everything to kill the Cowboys. I
think Tombstone would have been that much better if
they hadn't shown as much of the Last Crusade of
Wyatt Earp and his emortals... It was a bit drawn
out and they left to much to finish by the final
scene with Rbt Mitchum 
probably does wish he had never been born, since he
lost his true love (such a romantic behind that cynical
exterior). I guess for me the question is: how much
do you see Doc as having kill to fill in the big
hole at the centre of him? He seems to have a little
more self control than Ringo, but perhaps not much?
Perhaps a more rigidly defined code as to when he
will kill? What do you think of Val's comment that
Doc Holliday was heroic but extremely demented? He does
actually provoke the first shot at the confrontation behind
the O.K. Corral.
"Man like Johnny Ringo got a great
empty hole, right through the middle of him. He can never kill enough, or
steal enough, or inflict enough pain to ever fill it." (though I don't think
Doc was into inflicting pain)...
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